Ep222 Tim Lupinacci - Everybody Leads: How A Top Law Firm CEO Transformed Leadership Culture

Tim Lupinacci  0:00  
Historically, a lot of folks get the law degree and think they're at a higher level. They're a higher plane than the other individuals in the organization, our staff, our business services professionals, and I've really, worked really hard to try to instill in our firm this idea that we only succeed if all 1300 of us execute lead in our areas of expertise, and we work together and we trust those professionals.

Mike O'Neill  0:26  
Welcome to get unstuck and on target. The weekly podcast that offers senior leaders insights and strategies to not only lead with confidence and vision, but also to achieve groundbreaking results. I'm your host. Mike O'Neill, I coach top level executives on the power of ethical leadership to forge teams to be as united as they are effective in each episode, join me for insightful conversations with leaders, just like you providing practical advice to help you get unstuck and propel you and your company forward. Let's get started.

Mike O'Neill  1:08  
If you've ever wanted your team to take more ownership but felt stuck trying to make that happen, you're not alone. In this episode, I sit down with Tim lupinacci, CEO of Baker Donelson, one of the largest law firms in the country, Tim's not just talking about empowering others. He's built a culture where everybody leads, from attorneys to administrative staff, and it's helping his firm grow stronger, faster and more united in this conversation, Tim shares the leadership wake up call that shaped his journey, the courage it takes to lead through change and how curiosity and humility can be a CEO's greatest strengths if you want to scale your leadership without carrying the weight alone. This episode is for you. My guest today is Tim lupinacci, Chairman and CEO of Baker Donaldson. It's one of the 100 largest law firms in the US, and he leads a team of 1300 or calls 24 offices and 15 states. Since becoming CEO in 2019 Tim has led the firm through record growth, a global pandemic and a bold cultural transformation. He is also the voice behind everybody leads. It's a podcast, and he is about to release a book by the same name. And here's why this conversation matters. As your business grows, your leadership impact either scales or stalls, and the difference often comes down to how well you develop leaders around you. Welcome Tim.

Tim Lupinacci  2:49  
Mike, it is a thrill to be here. You've really influenced me in my journey, so I'm glad honored to be here to talk.

Mike O'Neill  2:56  
Tim. You have written, you have spoken about everybody leads, and it kind of makes the case for leadership. It's you say, it's not about position or power. Why did so many organizations miss this?

Tim Lupinacci  3:14  
Yeah, you know, I think that's a great question, Mike, I think some leaders maybe be a little bit a little bit afraid of giving others, you know, responsibility, autonomy to lead, empowering them to lead in their areas of responsibility. So I think one level may be leaders feeling like they have to have all the answers. They have to have all the power. But I also think the flip side, what was true for me is I was an employee, and I didn't think of myself as a leader until a boss really challenged me about that, because, as you said, I didn't have a power, I didn't have a title, and I think sometimes we just don't realize that, and we look at our work as very transactional. And so I think as my experience has been that as we empower others on our teams to step up as leaders in their area of responsibility, which really is about how they can influence and impact those around them, then it helps the organization as a whole, and really helps the ultimate leader of those organizations and teams to thrive even more, because now you've got a whole team working and driving in the same direction. So I think it's a combination of that, it's about the leader letting go a little bit, but it's also about the people on the team feeling empowered to step up and lead,

Mike O'Neill  4:30  
as I've gotten know you. This sounds so natural for you that it's a natural extension of you, but leadership is that one of the courses in law school,

Tim Lupinacci  4:43  
you know, interestingly enough, now I've one of my colleagues actually does teach a leadership course at a law school today. But when I was in law school, 30 plus years ago, no, there was not a class on leadership. It was really built through this, you know, the old school of hard knocks and and investing in myself on leadership, a. Long my journey, which I can talk about, but, but no, they don't. They don't really teach that in law school, at least they didn't when I was there.

Mike O'Neill  5:07  
Yeah, I have worked with lawyers for my entire career. I've worked with large firms. I've worked with your firm when you have a bunch of smart people together, both lawyers and non lawyers, has that presented a challenge for you? These folks might, at one point, say, in elementary or high school or even college, they might have been the smartest kid in the class. Now they're all working together. Have you found that to be a challenge?

Tim Lupinacci  5:42  
Mike, you hit the nail on the head. It is an interesting profession in the context of leadership, because a couple things from that is, as you said, everyone in our firm that or that have law degrees are have thrived their whole career. They've been very driven. They're very smart and and they very opinionated, because they're paid by clients to help argue or close big transactions and negotiate. So that's their skill set. So a law firm in leadership generally can't be like a top down where go do this. It's not, it's not autocrat, you know, like, and that's not my style anyway, to just dictate things. So it really is important to build those authentic relationships so people understand. So people understand. You know, that I'm genuinely interested in helping the firm move forward, helping them thrive, but they've got to trust me, and they may not always agree with my decision, but if I've built those authentic relationships, then they'll they'll understand where I'm coming from, and I can answer the why, but you also, part of your question also gets into another fundamental issue. Is that I think as a profession, historically, a lot of folks get the law degree and think they're at a higher level. They're a higher plane than the other individuals in the organization, our staff, our business services professionals, and it's sort of us versus them. Their work for me, and I've really, worked really hard to try to instill in our firm this idea that we only succeed if all 1300 of us execute lead in our areas of expertise, and we work together and we trust those professionals they know their areas of expertise more and with more depth and professionalism than we do just because we have a law degree. So I started the first day, I was named as the next CEO of the firm, or a couple of days later, we had a town hall, and I talked about how we really needed to have everyone step up as a leader. We needed to have individuals that, whether they have a law degree or not, not only have a seat at the table, but have a voice at the table. We need to listen to those professionals that may help us in marketing and business development or in our innovation platforms or revenue services or finance, because that's where they've studied. That's where they've got the expertise. And it's a journey. There's still folks that think that, you know, I'm bringing in the business, you know, I'm paying the bills. You know, do what I say, but we've really worked hard to instill that culture, that we're all in this together, and that we are a team, and it's not not a hierarchy type of situation.

Mike O'Neill  8:14  
I'd love to follow up on that. In your time as CEO, your firm has gone through considerable change. What particularly interested me in having you on the podcast is that you've led an organization that's growing fast, and I find fast growing organizations have their own set of challenges, but you also have been at the helm of leading kind of a cultural transformation, would you be able to kind of share the essence of the cultural goals that you're trying to help lead your organization towards?

Tim Lupinacci  8:51  
No, that's a great question, Mike, and it's interesting, because I think, you know, every organization out there talks about they've got great culture, and culture really matters to them. And I think at picker mileston, we have really, for decades, tried to walk the walk of really living out our culture. And as you said, we've gone through a lot of growth. I think when you got to about 2018 2019 we had really plateaued as an organization financially, but more importantly, with engagement of our colleagues, maybe marketplace perception. And so we really did have to enter into this growth phase. And the way that I thought we could sort of supersize that or accelerate that is just to continue to double down on this culture, a culture of inclusion, a culture of voices matter, a culture of respect towards each other and and some of that is starts from the top. Our COO and I spend time in each of our office every year. Matter of fact, we're in the middle of a summer road trip where Jennifer and I, our COO are going to all of our offices over about a six week period. And we've come into town, and we do a couple town halls. We do. Social event, and then we drive to the next city, and that just is about building community, and we can we can lead from the top, but it's also instilling the idea that each individual in each office has to own their own impact, about community, about purpose, about what they're doing. And so that's really some of what we're doing on this tour is really just reminding everyone, everyone has to own the building, the community building, the teams, building impact in their communities. And so culture is something that I think then helps, has helped us as we've doubled down on that to accelerate the growth in the other areas in finance, but most importantly, serving our clients. And that's really why we're here, day in and day out. And if we have that culture of empowerment, that culture of respect, that culture that you really matter in this whole journey with our clients, then I think that's helped us get better, even in serving our clients.

Mike O'Neill  10:59  
You know, before we schedule this, you and I talked and you mentioned that you are in the middle of these. I should you call it a road show or not, but you're trying to visit each of the office and have a town hall, if I might, kind of peek behind the curtain a bit. Sure I see town halls more often than not, being the leader or a leadership team comes in, they make a presentation, they field a couple of cursory questions, and they're off to a private meeting with the rest of the senior leaders at that given office, you describe something very different, and that is you come together as not just you as your coo as well, But you also mentioned earlier in the conversation that it's important for people to feel that they not only have, quote, a seat at the table, but they have a voice. How do you tap into that in your town halls?

Tim Lupinacci  11:54  
Yes, and so it's another great question. We have intentionally built this trip, this road trip, and we've got t shirts with a VW bus, like Old Summer kind of road trips you could do, and have all the tour dates on the back of the jersey of the shirt. It's kind of fun because it looks like we get into an office and it looks like everyone's got the same jersey on because it's the same T shirt. But we've been very intentional about we wanted to listen. We could absolutely build a, you know, a 45 minute presentation and then just move on, but we do an annual engagement survey in the spring, and that is generally a numeric kind of calculation, you know, do you strongly agree with the statement? Do you disagree? And that's great, and we've had some success in moving that the numeric number up. But what's most valuable to Jennifer and I has been there's boxes where people can write individual comments, and we literally got over 1700 individual statements in that survey, and a lot of it was asking a lot of questions, so we've already incorporated into our presentation. We go through some you know, where are we right now? Where are we in our vision? What's our strategy, encouraging everybody and what they're doing? But then we just have time to answer questions that have already been presented across that survey, and then just open it up for other questions. And that's been rewarding. And then on top of that, we walk the halls. And as you said, there could be a tendency to just walk the hall to the person with the biggest corner office who's got the biggest book of business, right, but we walk and talk to legal support coordinators, which are sort of our secretaries, paralegals, support staff, business services professionals. I sat in a paralegals office yesterday for about 45 minutes, and she was expressing some frustrations about some obstacles that the systems were putting in her way of executing on her job, and I'm not in the trenches, so I was very interested to listen to that. So it really all comes down to a lot of intentionality to listen and I'm taking copious notes. Now, can we change everything we hear? No. I mean, there's some things that just individuals are a little frustrated about something, but that's just the nature of what we're doing as an organization, and it's best for the organization. But there are a lot of things. I would give you an example. One thing we heard was people love our professional development. We call it Baker talent, because everything's Baker something since we're Baker Donaldson, but our some of our Baker talent, skill building training videos that are captured in the past and are still on our site are outdated, so we need to, we need to update those. And then I've also gotten some ideas for new trainings that people say, Well, we haven't really done this. Could we do this? I will. I wouldn't know that if I'm not asking questions, listening and taking notes, and so, um, so that's how we've really tried to make this more about having making sure that everyone's heard and has a voice.

Mike O'Neill  14:39  
You know, with 1300 and growing terms of employees and getting 1600 comments, that would be an indication that people realize, you know what, they're taking this seriously, and I'm going to take the time to write out my ideas, and that you as a leader are taking the time. To go back and validate, to spend that one on one time, the walk the halls with intentionality. You know, thus far we've talked about you as the CEO, I would love to kind of go down this path of everybody leads. What is about that, I think there was an incident early in your career that kind of set you kind of on this trajectory. Can you tell us a little more about

Tim Lupinacci  15:23  
that? I absolutely will, you know, I just want to, I totally agree with you, Mike, about your comment about engagement surveys, and I know you've got really high powered leaders listening to the show and that you coach, and that is something that's really important. I didn't want to lose that, that you can do engagement surveys or, you know, feedback surveys all day long, but if you don't read all those and then show that you've listened and actually have an action plan, and that's what we did. I mean, I really can't, you know, can't really say, well, here is a summary of all 1600 comments. But there were three large areas that kind of a lot of them were in, you know, in comps, encapsulated. And so I came out, and I did this was virtual town halls we did in the in the spring after that, they were around culture, like, how do we maintain our culture as we're growing about communications, how can we get better communicating ideas and where we're heading? And then it was some things about compensation. We're the big drivers, and so we have an action plan built on that. So I just wanted to say, I totally agree with you, and I think as a leader, sometimes it's easy to do it and say, Yeah, we checked the box and did it, but it's really the follow up. But to your point about everybody leaves, as I said, I jokingly say that I stumbled into law school because I didn't know what I wanted to do with my career. I mean, I was a Mass Comm major. I thought I wanted to work in radio and television. Somehow, I didn't really have the talent for that, but I just that was my major, but I took a media law course. I thought it was interesting, so I went to law school, and now I'm now working at a firm, and I didn't have any lawyers in my family. And as I said earlier, I had this mindset of really being transactional. I would get a project, I turned it in, I'd go on to the next project, maybe get some feedback, maybe not. And I was working on a really large project about a year and a half into my legal journey with another associate, another young lawyer, who was about five years my junior, I mean, my senior, and I did my part, turned it into him. He turned it into our boss, and I went on the way, but we got paged into our boss's office. And you knew you didn't like to get paged into his office, because he was a pretty gruff leader, and he was on a phone with about a dozen lawyers, as it turned out, on a speaker phone, and he started they were yelling at him. So he starts yelling at us, and we had made a huge mistake. It was a financial project about a bankruptcy case, and we had double counted, like several million dollars of claims. So we were off on our calculations, and he yells at us and says, Well, these idiots are going to stay here all night and get this right? So I'm thinking, I'm going to lose my job and and because I didn't, I didn't know. I mean, this is the first time I've been yelled at at a new job. So we did stay there. We got it all emailed out and got it done. Well, that the next morning was the big court hearing that this information was needed for, and I had drawn the short straw to pick up my boss at his home and drive to court, and it was a lot of awkward silence along the way. But then he said they did, you know, speak up and did? He wanted to apologize to me because he said I shouldn't have yelled at you in front of other people. And he said, but the reason I was so angry about you in particular is that I really see you've got a huge opportunity in your career to really step up and own your career, to not rely on others to fix problems, but to be a real leader in what you're doing. And that was really a moment that I don't know that I'd had someone speak leadership into me like that before, and it was just a few sentences, but it really set me on this journey of, well, if I didn't know, really well, what does that mean to be a leader? How do I get better as a leader? And that's where I was saying earlier, like they didn't teach it in law school, I had to go to start reading books and listening to books on tape. You know, that was that era, and going to some leadership conferences to try to teach myself about leadership.

Mike O'Neill  18:55  
That lesson learned very early obviously had a strong impact on you. At what point did you begin to see yourself as a traditional leader?

Tim Lupinacci  19:07  
Yeah, it was interesting, because as I was reading and growing and learning, I mean, one of the books I think was popular at that time was John Maxwell's, you know, Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. And as I started understanding more about that leadership is a lot about influence and impact. I started looking for opportunities to step up, and as my as I, you know, moved along in my career. I did. Then ultimately had a paralegal assigned to me. So that's, you know, leading one other person. Certainly, I've been working on better leading myself, you know, executing on daily disciplines, but then I now have a paralegal and then a young associate. Now that I've grown I've got a young associate, and I remember early on, like the three of us, I would just schedule a weekly meeting, and we'd have coffee for about 30 minutes. We'd sit and for a little bit, we'd talk about what we were working on and what needed to get done. But then I started inviting people from around the firm. I thought were great leaders to come in and just talk about their leadership journey to the group of three of us, you know. And so that was literally the very beginnings of that. And then over time, as you lead, as you grow, then, you know, your territory can expand a little bit as you get opportunities. And so, but that really was the start of it. And then it grew to a bigger team. And then when I left to join another firm. I was building out a whole team of people in my area of profession, and then ultimately led to leading an office and kept me on my journey. But it really did start with that, thinking about, how can I better lead myself? And then, even then, wherever I was, where I was planted, I had, like said, two other people that kind of relied on me to just start pouring into each other. And as I was, of course, pouring into myself, as we were doing that as well,

Mike O'Neill  20:47  
you host a podcast, yeah, and my understanding is you bring in guest, but you're trying to reinforce this idea of of everybody leads. How do you work that into your podcast,

Tim Lupinacci  21:01  
right? Well, the main focus of the podcast, and it's a little bit, I think, we're very similar, Mike, I mean, I really just look at it is, it's an opportunity for Tim to learn from great leaders. I've primarily focused on executives from corporations and executive directors of nonprofits. It's kind of been the primary focus of who I invite to come in, a lot of clients of the firm, and also nonprofits we have partnership with, but I've talked to others as well. And so I'm just curious listening about their leadership journey, the things they've learned, their philosophies on how they lead. And so it's as much helping me to get become a better leader, but the thought being that, since everybody is a leader, no matter you know, again, as you said, don't have a title, don't have power, but you influence others. And you may not be in the workforce, you could be in work, or you could be volunteering at a nonprofit you know, or in your you know, church or synagogue, and but you do have influence. So my hope is that by talking to these folks who have been on their leadership journey, they've made mistakes, they've gotten better that then maybe that will empower others to feel more like that they can step up in leadership. And I also have a question I ask each of them of somebody in their own life who didn't have big authority, power, fancy corner office, who impacted them in an outsized way. And that's kind of just an encouragement to everyone that that you can do it can get better, and you can influence others for good.

Mike O'Neill  22:26  
You mentioned the word curiosity. How has curiosity given you, maybe an edge that others did not have? The way

Tim Lupinacci  22:36  
that curiosity shows up to me is, I'm, as you said, there's, there's a part that I really work with some incredibly smart, bright, talented people. And I joke that, you know, I'm not the smartest tool in the shed. You know, I did make it through law school, I got a job, but I never felt like I was the most, the smartest person in the room. I don't feel that today, and so the way that shows up for me is just to really ask questions and try to learn from others. I think that also comes across then that you're not trying to, you know, say that you're trying to lead somebody in the context of, I know it all. I've got all the answers, but I'm building that curiosity. I'm trying to learn from them. I'm trying to understand if they're disappointed in an outcome or they think that a particular policy is one that you know, we should overturn. I'm trying to understand their why behind it, but I really I just look at every interaction I'm talking to, like even talking with you today, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to learn something from you to get better in my own journey. So I think that just it helps me personally, but I think it also then comes across genuinely as I really am interested in hearing and listening and getting better every day. So I think it has been a superpower that that leaders can tap into to just be curious.

Mike O'Neill  23:50  
Well, I would echo what you just said. I have learned so much from my guest. One of the challenges that I guess I see is that when you host a podcast by the name of everybody leads you write a book, or I'm soon to release that book by the same title, saying it and operationalizing that. Do you feel you're under, in essence, added pressure to make sure that you set up an organization in which that, in fact, is embodied

Tim Lupinacci  24:24  
Absolutely because, I mean, I'm a firm believer that, you know, we can say we've got a great culture, we can say we've got a great strategic plan. We can say we, you know, really value our people. But if it doesn't show up in actions, it's kind of meaningless, and it falls on deaf ears. And so when I say that, I want everyone to really be able to step up and lead in their area of expertise. First of all, I've gotta, I've gotta, like I said, empower others, and they need to see me showing that, letting others speak into the firm in their areas of expertise. But we've also got. Provide the skills, the training, to help folks get there, and that's why we've really worked hard to build out what, again, we call our Baker talent area of the firm. So if you're going to be a leader, we need to have leadership development courses. We Our vision is built around becoming trusted advisors to our clients, whether external or internal. And there's nothing new about trusted advisor. I mean, the book's been written 25 years ago, but it's what our clients want, and so we can go say, yeah, go be a trusted advisor. Godspeed. We'll see you next year how your performance was. But we've built a trusted advisor Academy internally that both the lawyers you know interacting with external clients, but our professional services and staff who may never interact with an external client, we can be trusted advisors internally. And so you really do again, is that phrase that's a little overused, but walk the walk. We have to not just say, become a better leader. We have to help you get there, and we have to model what that looks like. And then we have to, you know, when we make mistakes, we have to acknowledge that and say we've learned from this, and now we're going to pivot and try this a different way.

Mike O'Neill  26:06  
You mentioned external customers, and you immediately followed up with internal customers, and in terms of what I'm sensing about your leadership style, and it would seem to me that the culture you're trying to foster is that internal customer service is as important, perhaps even more important, if you're going to move the organization in the direction that you all have decided you want to move towards. Would you agree with that?

Tim Lupinacci  26:36  
That's absolutely true. Mike, matter of fact, our vision Baker vision is over about five or six year period. And so each year, though, we've had to maybe make sure that we're focusing on things that we really need to get better at that year in the overall arch, arc of things. So this year, we talk about owning your impact, and we really speak into all 1300 plus people at the firm that they have to own their impact in, you know, caring for each other, in helping each other, internally and externally. I heard I read something recently, there was an apparently, in ancient Rome, there was a concept they would call people ante on belos. And even though I've got an Italian name, I'm not Italian. So I know I just botched that, but it's an Italian word, but it means one who clears the way for others. And so in these town halls, as we've been talking to people, sometimes you think, well, how can I own my impact? I just do X, I just do Y. And I've said, Well, really owning your impact is about helping clear the way for others. If others are facing obstacles or having challenges or overwhelmed, coming alongside and helping them and so. So that's really a part of how we've really tried to instill this that everybody does have a part to play internally and externally. And you hit you're exactly right. The why behind our current mission statement is our clients demand it. They want people who know their industry, know their business, and can proactively help them solve problems. That's that trusted advisor thing. Leg our people. We have to our people are amazing talent. We have to pour into them. We have to help them. We have to help each other, because that's the only way that we're going to be able to serve our clients with excellence. And if we're doing those two legs of the stool, the success of the firm will take care of itself. Yes, and that, and, you know, the revenue growth and all that, that's great. It doesn't drive me. It's our people. Drives me, because I'm convinced that if we're doing all that, then we're going to be successful into the long, you know, for the long term.

Mike O'Neill  28:38  
In keeping with the theme of this podcast, I would ask you if you would kind of reflect at some point in your career where perhaps you got stuck. Would you mind sharing, perhaps a moment where you might have felt stuck and shared? What did it take for you to move forward with clarity? Yeah, that's

Tim Lupinacci  28:56  
a great question. Mike, it's funny because my mind goes in two different directions. When I was practicing law full time, which I'm not doing anymore, I was a corporate bankruptcy transactional lawyer, and you know, certainly 2008 2009 with the economic downturn, our team was incredibly busy for multiple years just trying to help navigate all of the challenges that were all around us. But I got to about 2012 2013 and my work really started to slow down. And it was one of those where, what do I do now, you know, and certainly bankruptcy lawyers, you know, see a lot of cycles, but I really was struggling with, what do I do here? And so that I really took some time to reflect and thought, Well, I really have enjoyed I've been able, over that period to do a little bit of work with healthcare restructures and bankruptcies healthcare providers who were struggling, or lenders who had lent into that industry, and it had really slowed because the economy was turning around and things were good. So I just decided, well, I'm going to use this time I have to go to industry events, to go meet with clients, and just ask. Ask them, you know, what's going on in the industry? What are some changes you're seeing? And there were a lot of changes in the industry to try to build my brand and expertise in that specific niche of healthcare, bankruptcies. And then as you got about a year later, all that effort sowing those seeds did turn into some, you know, reaping some reward as there were increased problems, maybe not, you know, globally in that industry, but just within the clients I've been meeting with, and so they knew Tim is interested in our industry, and that helped help do that. So it was a little bit of not just having a pity party that the economy had gotten better, which is kind of anti, you know, antithetical to what most of us think, you know. But it was about, what can I do proactively to do that? You know, in leadership. I think one of the things that I struggled with, and maybe other leaders on your on your listeners will, you know, appreciate, is we'd had a couple successful years. We came out of the pandemic, and most professional services firm did okay at the end of the day. Of course, it was all the uncertainty at first. So we ended up having a couple record years, and it was a lot of hard work, and we felt like, you know, we got the flywheel moving, and there's, there. Was like, Okay, well, maybe we can take a break. And, you know, maybe people see that what we're doing is, you know, is working. And so, and we made a couple of decisions that I didn't really get full buy in on, because I just thought, well, they're going to trust us now, because we got this move in the right direction. And it really was one where it was just kind of a little bit of laziness, you know, a little bit of I wasn't I just had pause. I'd been stuck a little bit because we had some success. And so what I then had to step back again. And I think times of reflection are invaluable to leaders. I had somebody early in my career say you need to have staring out the window time. And so I needed some of that to reflect and say, No, we've had success. It's only because of all 1300 of us pulling together. And you have to continue to build that, that trust, that authenticity, that buy in so people know what you're doing, that you're not trying to, you know, get something by them. So I guess those were a couple examples where I got stuck, had to reflect, had to really ask questions, had to get some feedback, you know, about some blind spots and then, but then I took an action plan to try to move forward and get unstuck.

Mike O'Neill  32:12  
Yeah, those are really great examples. I would love to come back to the concept of everybody leads what might be something you want to share with us that we have not covered yet.

Tim Lupinacci  32:28  
You know, one of the things I think, I think it goes back just because of my journey, and I mentioned my boss, who spoke into me about leadership and really having the confidence about that, I think I've really tried to encourage folks and and particularly leaders. Today, it's a challenging world. It's so uncertain. You know, any given day there could be a new rule that could impact your business in ways you had never even imagined. I really just want to speak into your listeners that I mean, I think leaders need to step up and just with courage. And I love acronyms, and so I've kind of built out an acronym that I remind myself every day around courage and why I mentioned confidence. The first one is confidence. I mean, you are in the position you're in, whether it's leading your family, whether it's leading in a nonprofit, whether it's leading an organization or team. Just have confidence, not that you know it all, but that others saw something in you to be there and then to lead. The O is about being out front. I know that sometimes I just want to, first of all, we all need times of rejuvenation reflection, where we step away to show up as our best self. But when we are showing up, we do need to be out front. We need to be engaging with our colleagues. The U is unshakable. I think being unshakable, situations are going to happen, and you just need to then decide, what are we going to do as a result of that thing that we didn't control? And how can we get better? The R is resilient. I think that's something leaders today need more than ever, and that does come with times of rejuvenation and taking care of yourself. And mental health wellness is a really big increasing challenge in the world, and certainly in our industry. And so can I have that resilience to be able to bounce back? The A is adaptable. I think leaders today have to be adaptable. You have to have a growth mindset, the G and then to be an encourager. I've found that as I encourage others, it often boom around back and encourages me. So I know that's that's multi part answer, but the big thing I just want to speak to listeners is have to have the confidence and be courageous in what you're doing, because you're doing important work. The folks that you are leading need you to step up and to be that, almost like that lighthouse, that beacon that's choppy waters all around us. And so I just really want to speak that into your listeners.

Mike O'Neill  34:41  
Well, let me parrot that little bit. That is, if we've got listeners today who are kind of feeling that they're carrying that weight alone, what might be one mindset or move that you would suggest that they could try this week to try start sharing that load. More effectively.

Tim Lupinacci  35:02  
That's, I mean, I could unpack that a lot of different ways. And you said one, I mean, I would say, in the whole context of better leading yourself, I definitely would encourage folks who haven't taken advantage of this, whether it's building a relationship with a therapist, to help have a safe space to talk about maybe Mental Health Wellness challenges you have. I speak to a therapist every six weeks or so, and that just is a helpful place to just, you know, reset a coach. I definitely think I've got, I've got a coach that helps me, who now knows our business right, and they know what I'm going through. They know some of the personalities of the people at our firm, and it really helps me to put things in perspective with a view of somebody who doesn't even, doesn't do work necessarily in our industry. But so I would definitely say like having a having somebody, a trusted advisor, like you, Mike, is probably the best step that a leader can take. I mean, there's a lot of other things I could talk about, daily, disciplines and that that I think are vital, but I would say if I had one thing, it would be just really build a relationship with a coach, or if, again, if needed, necessarily a therapist, because I think that's just going to give you that space to be able to think about how to maybe delegate and do other things to help you.

Mike O'Neill  36:18  
I appreciate you sharing that I too, have a coach, and my coach serves me in so many ways, and as a result, I hopefully am a better coach as result. You know, tell me in closing, I would like to kind of share of our listeners. If today's conversation reminded you that leadership is it's a shared journey. Take that to heart, the best leaders don't just drive results, they develop people and they multiply influence. You know. Tim, thank you so much for the work that you're doing to kind of redefine leadership, and for helping us see how it's possible that we can kind of shift from leading alone to leading together. I know that there will be listeners who want to connect with you and learn more about your work and to learn a little about how to get your upcoming book. How can they best do that?

Tim Lupinacci  37:11  
Yeah, sure. I'm at Baker donelson.com so that's b, a, k, e, r, d o n, e, l, s o n.com and I've loved talking to people, love interacting with folks. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook with my name Tim lupinacci, and the book will come out in July 22 so it might be out by the time this is aired, and so it'll be available on Amazon. And I certainly can give in the show notes a link to that as well, Mike, but I'm really excited about that and and just been an honor to be here and talking with you, Tim.

Mike O'Neill  37:47  
We will include your contact information and a link to the book. In fact, this will be published after it comes live, so that would be very, very good timing. So let me if I could, as we kind of wrap up, if this episode has sparked something into you, the listener, maybe a leadership shift that you're navigating, or a challenge that's maybe feeling you stuck, I'd like to invite you to something a little different. It's called a game plan, strategy call. It's not a discovery session, it's a focused two hour coaching conversation where we tackle one leadership challenge that really matters to you. You're going to walk away with sharper insight, greater clarity and a meaningful next step forward. But there's going to be no pitch, no pressure, just real coaching. So if you or someone on your team would benefit from that kind of clarity, you'll find a link in the show notes as well. Tim, thank you.

Tim Lupinacci  38:56  
Thank you, Mike. Just to add on what you just said, I encourage you. I want everyone to take one step from this conversation today, and that step very well could be and should be scheduling one of those calls, because that will really lead you on a journey of building your influence and your impact. So I just encourage you to take advantage of that, because I'm a big fan of that and the need of leaders to do that kind of work. Excellent.

Mike O'Neill  39:20  
I also want to thank all of our listeners, and I hope that this episode will help you get unstuck and on target. Thank you for joining us for this episode of get unstuck and on target. I hope you gain insights to help you lead with competence and drive your organization forward. Remember, at bench builders, we're committed to your success, your leadership excellence and your strategic growth. If you've enjoyed our conversation today, please leave a review rate and subscribe to keep up with our latest episodes. This show really grows when listeners like you share it with others. Who do you? You know who needs to hear what we talked about today, until next time, I encourage you to stay focused on the target and continue to break new ground on your leadership path.

Speaker 1  40:21  
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