Ep220 Nancy Ward - Breaking Free from Credit Card Debt Without Budgeting

Nancy Ward 0:00

Money is just so fluid that you can't always have that restrictive budget, and then what it does is it gets to you mentally and emotionally. So that's where looking at trends to see where am I spending and where do I need to save?

Mike O'Neill 0:18

Welcome to get unstuck and on target, the weekly podcast that offers senior leaders insights and strategies to not only lead with confidence and vision, but also to achieve groundbreaking results. I'm your host. Mike O'Neill. I coach top level executives on the power of ethical leadership to forge teams to be as united as they are effective in each episode, join me for insightful conversations with leaders just like you providing practical advice to help you get unstuck and propel you and your company forward. Let's get started. Money stress doesn't stay at home. It follows people to work often in ways that leaders don't immediately see. In this episode, I talk with financial coach Nancy Ward about why even high earners can feel stuck in credit card debt, and why traditional budgeting often doesn't work. As an executive coach, I've seen how hidden stress can quietly chip away at performance and morale. Nancy shares insights to help leaders recognize the signs and respond in ways that builds trust, not tension. If you care about leading with empathy and awareness, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it. My guest today is Nancy Ward, a financial coach who helps professionals get out of credit card debt and move forward with confidence, without traditional budgets or shame based tactics. Nancy works with high earners who look like they've got it all together, but they might feel stuck behind or perhaps even ashamed of their financial reality, she helps them shift habits, rebuild their relationships with money and regain footing. So why does this matter to you? A leader? Well, because chances are someone on your team is carrying financial stress that's impacting how they show up. This isn't just a personal topic, it's a leadership issue. Welcome Nancy.

Nancy Ward 2:30

Thank you so much. Glad to be here today.

Mike O'Neill 2:34

If I was to put a topic title on our episode, it would be how to get out of credit card debt without budgeting? Boy, that draws me in, but you work with a lot of successful professionals who they probably do feel stuck financially. How common is that?

Nancy Ward 2:53

It is very common, and with budgeting, it's just like dieting. If you're going to count calories, nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants to budget. And with all my years of being in the corporate field, budgeting, to me, is as close to zero as possible. And sometimes that's just not it's just not in the cards when you're going grocery shopping or having a family dinner, and you need to buy more food than you normally would on a weekly basis. So money is just so fluid that you can't always have that restrictive budget. And then what it does is it gets to you mentally and emotionally, and it's it's just not a good thing to have.

Mike O'Neill 3:41

Would you elaborate? I made an assumption that may be wrong, but if people are struggling with this issue, do you see it affect their performance as professionals? Oh,

Nancy Ward 3:53

yes, because you think about what keeps you up at night, and why can't you fall asleep because you have that financial stress, how can I do better at work? How can I get a raise or get a promotion? All of that is based on money, because you're trying to provide for your family, and it will affect your performance at work.

Mike O'Neill 4:17

You know this notion of getting out of credit card debt without budgeting. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Because you know what financial folks say is you gotta, gotta have a budget. And why have you found that that simply doesn't work

Nancy Ward 4:33

well? And I'm sure a lot of your guests are thinking, Yeah, I've budgeted, and it worked for about a month or two, and then something happened, and I just gave up. I had to buy a new set of tires, or we decided to go on a once in a lifetime vacation, and we blew our budget as far as where we wanted to go for vacation. So when I'm working with my clients, I take it at a different point of view, and I look at their spending, their category spending. Spending. So one of the things that I work with is we look at it in any given month. And you can do this exercise even yourself. You can go to your credit card or your debit card and say, hey, just for the fun of it, let's look up February. What? What is my category spending for February? Because these credit cards know where you're shopping and you go to the grocery store, it's categorized under groceries. You go and get your oil changed, it's under automobile. So it all of those things, those factors, are already in there, as far as when the merchant sets up their credit card information with Visa and MasterCard and so forth. So with that, you can look at it and say, Okay, how much was my spending. And then you see groceries was 25% of your spending for the month, not your budget, but your spending. And then you can also break that down a little bit further and say, Ooh, I went to Kroger, I went to Meijer. Oh, I went to Costco. And that's where the revelation comes in and you say, Wow, this month I went to Costco and spent $350 I mean, you go to Costco, you can buy outdoor furniture or anything. You'll buy a refrigerator. There's so many things at Costco, but if you know what you spent at Costco, and was all groceries, plus you went to Kroger, or you went to Publix, or wherever you go to the grocery store, you're realizing, holy cow, I spent $900 on groceries and I didn't even realize it. And that's the thing. Is that nowadays we just tap and pay. There is no checkbook, there is no add in how much we made, and put your paycheck in and how much we wrote a check for. Because even with debit cards, you people can spend on a debit card once or twice or three times a day, depending on where they're running their errands, maybe getting a coffee, going to the dry cleaners, having lunch with coworkers. We're just spend, spend, spend, and that has really changed how you know me growing up. I grew up in the 80s, and if you didn't have the money, you didn't, you didn't buy anything, and we also didn't have all these conveniences. So that's that's the catch 22 is that, as a professional, you're like, Yes, I'm making great money. I'm bringing it home. I have a great salary. I get a bonus every quarter or every year. And you're like, Well, I can afford this, but I make good money. It's like, you're self justifying. So when I'm working with my clients, we really dive deeply into that. Because, again, that's where, not necessarily budgeting, but just to say, Whoa, I can't believe I spent $900 last month on groceries. And then you sit back and think, what the heck did I buy for $900 Now, if you've got a baby, you know the cost of diapers and formula and you know you pick up a toilet paper and paper towels, right? There could be $100 trip just all on its own, not even including, you know, your eggs and milk and cereal and so forth. But that's where you start to get the realization. And if you can look at that and say to yourself, Wow, I need to watch what I'm spending. That's that's going to be more impactful than budgeting and saying, I only have $300 a month for groceries, and then something happens, and you're like, well, blew that budget, just like dieting. Well, went to a graduation party, blew my diet, and then you just want to give up. So that's where looking at trends, and that is one of my superpowers, is data analyst and so forth. So, you know, I'm always looking at the numbers to see where are my trends. Where am I spending and where do I need to save?

Mike O'Neill 8:49

So what I've learned thus far is, you're finding the word budgeting is makes people nervous, if you would, and because we're prone to blow our budget, it's almost like a new habit. If I blow it early on, why bother going forward? I would like to go back to something you said a moment ago, and that is, high earners in an organization, yes, senior leaders making very good money, who have much higher limits on those credit cards, if you would. Do you find that more often not, it's the high earners that find themselves in credit card debt unknowingly. But it can almost feel overwhelming, how quickly it adds up. It's

Nancy Ward 9:41

a little bit of a mix of both. And the other thing too is just a little financial education tip here, when you're looking at if your cards are maxed out, your your spending, your utilization, should only be about 30% mm. Yeah, and it's amazing how much your credit card apps are actually telling you about your credit journey and where things are going and how much you're spending and so forth like that. They're going to tell you how much you're spending is so obviously, for an example, if you have one credit card and it's you only have a $500 credit limit left your your credit usage is probably around 95% so with these high earners, yes, that we always get those emails and text messages, hey, update your income, update your income, and the credit card companies keep on increasing your credit limit, expecting you to spend more, but also too, having that self control, if you will, in order to say just because I have $15,000 credit limit on my credit card doesn't mean that I should spend it all, because you are going to have to pay that back, whether it's this month or eventually, and we get into this trap of, oh, I'll Just pay for it later. I'll pay for it later, I'll pay for it later. And then you say, Nope, don't have the money this month. I'll just leave it on there and I'll, you know, I'll collect the interest. And no big deal. But the issue is, too is that when you're looking at those numbers, and you see that interest fee every single month, $140 you're paying the credit card, $140 for the convenience of you not paying it off at the end of the month, end of the billing cycle, you're basically tipping the credit card company $140 a month for nothing. They did nothing for you, except for allow you to spend more money. So those are the realizations that people end up having when they're working with me, because they don't think about that again. It's, I make good money. I'm going to spend. I'm going to just keep on, you know, keep on buying whatever I want. And they're not, they're they're so busy with their lives or the stress of their jobs or the demands of their families, they might not be looking at that bottom line of oh my gosh, if I would only buy what I need and buy within the limits of what I make an income, then I wouldn't have the credit card debt and I wouldn't have this extra Charge, just like I said, for the convenience of not paying your bill on a monthly basis.

Mike O'Neill 12:26

Now, about this point, you're thinking, all right, this episode is brought to you by American Express, but I got an American Express card right out of college and two weeks into the job, the whole staff was at a very fancy restaurant, and the boss said, Hey, pick this up, won't you? Because he would approve my expense accounts. The CEO would be the one approving his and I very reluctantly pulled this brand new American scar card, and I nervously put it on the little tray they bring by because it's a fancy French restaurant, hoping, Oh, please, please, please. Well, it did go through, and I was so relieved when it did go through. But I've never written a tip that big. But what I picked up on very early on is a month or two later, I get this. Mike, congratulations, you qualify for a platinum card. You're not kidding. It just ropes you in very, very early. Yes. So Nancy, you have said there is an advantage of having credit card debt, if you look at these statements, because it gives you categories that you can kind of begin understanding. But you also do something that takes a little bit further, I think you call it the money snapshot.

Nancy Ward 13:50

Yes, still there I have my money snapshot. It's about it's a little booklet here. It's about 50 pages. It actually has information. Um, it has education, and on the same side, it has places where you can fill in the information, but it's so think about when you're going to go dieting, and the first thing that you do is you step on the scale. How much do I weigh? All right? Your goal is, I want to lose 20 pounds. So you're going to step on the scale with this money snapshot. You're going to put out all of your information. What is your credit card? What are your loans? Even the personal loan to grandma or your aunts, because you were in a pickle and you needed to borrow money from family. This is going to help you to have the documentation in order to say, Okay, this is where I started. I had $7,000 in credit card debt, and I have a car loan and I have a mortgage. And as you're progressing, and you're looking at it, and you're making those changes, and you're in getting everything aligned and having the right debt payoff plan, you. You can look back at this document two, three months later and go, Wow, I can't believe I paid off this much money already because I was conscious of what I was spending or how I needed to save in order to pay down these credit cards. So this, this document, it's only 50 pages, but it's, it's short and simple to the point, talks about credit score, gives you a little education on that, but also to look at your credit score. Now, you might not be buying a car or buying a house. You might not be needing your credit score for anything at this point in time, and you go, well, what's the importance of it? I don't really care. But in about 43 states in the United States, your car insurance is based on your credit score, whether or not you knew that or not. So again, are you good with your money? Okay, that means more likely you're a good driver if you're bad with your money, and you are behind, more than likely you're not good with your money, because if you're behind with this, you might be behind with your rent and things like that. So this snapshot, like I said, it gives you just an awareness of what's going on. Where are you at? So then you can go to that next step and say, Okay, now I know I have this. I had this going on with this much credit card debt. This is how much I'm paying in fees. I need to crack down and evaluate my spending and really go into that needs versus wants, but it also is all determined on what your goals are. If you say to yourself, I want to take that dream vacation with my family, or I want to save for my kids college. They're only five years old, but I need to start talking money away, but I'm spending money on credit cards. It just gives that that you're judging yourself at that point. We talked about non judgment, but you're looking at this in black and white and saying, oh my gosh, I need to make a change. And as we mentioned before, this is the type of stuff that keeps people up at night and stressed out and and saying, how, you know, can I get overtime and how? How can I do that? So when you talked about how a leader can use this to their advantage, is maybe somebody is having some money issues, and maybe that's why they're coming up and asking for overtime or asking for a raise or a promotion or something else financially is because they're struggling, but they don't really want to talk about it, because it is a taboo. It's embarrassing, and the boss man knows how much money you make, but you can't control your money. So if you can fix that in order to relieve things that are in your life and in your family and enjoy the time. Because yes, you make good money, but are you using that money for what you want? Whether it's that dream vacation or, you know, a new car, whatever that case may be.

Mike O'Neill 17:57

So Nancy, I want to ask you to share a success story where someone, one of your clients, got unstuck. Can you share maybe a story that that person got unstuck financially, but what changed when they had the right tools, the support and the mindset?

Nancy Ward 18:18

Yeah, I so going back to that category spending. I was working with one of my clients, and we looked at everything, and said, Okay, you know, what do you have for this category, in this category, in this category? And she said, Wow, I spent $1,200 this month on automobile. It's like, Well, what was that all about? She's like, Oh, that's right, we got new tires. It's like, okay. And the next session that, when we got together, she said, Oh my gosh, Nancy, I didn't even realize how much I was spending at Chick fil A in a month. And at the time, it was family of four, their daughter was in college, and now they have a second daughter in college. But she said, Wow, I didn't realize it. And within like, like, I said about a session or so, she had come back and said, I reduced how many times we go to Chick fil A, and cooking more in the house. And I'm just amazed at how much less money we're spending dining out, because it's so convenient. And I know that there's a lot of people out there that they might have small kids, and right now you might be that drive through mom or drive through Dad, where on the way to practice or on the way home from practice, you just run through McDonald's and grab something and just not even think about it. And you know, eventually that will change when the kids get older and they want to eat more, and it's more of an adult meal than a kid's meal. But it was, it was, it was great because, again, I'm not here as a financial coach to tell you what to do and not drink your Starbucks coffee. And you know all those things that you hear about how to fix your finances. It was just an awareness for her. Her and she realized, and she made those changes in order to take that money and put it towards the credit card, instead of putting it towards restaurants and so forth. So it was nice, nice to see that. I didn't tell her what to do, but she figured it out. And just another quick story from a client. She just told me this about a week or so ago. She said, Nancy, I was in the store, and all of a sudden you were just there, and you were, I was having a conversation with you, and you were just giving me advice. And I thought, nope, I'm not buying this today. I was like, Oh, okay. Can because again, too, if you've got these goals of where you want your money to go, you're going to be more conscious of where are you spending this money, and is this really going towards my end financial goal, my my what I want to do with my money. So that was, that was such a cute story. I was like, it's like, I felt like, I'm like, the little devil and the angel and the devil on somebody's shoulders,

Mike O'Neill 21:09

those are two great examples. And I think what I'm hearing is that by being intentional, just looking at better understand that alone can have a significant impact, because they understand where the money is going, and they can do something about that and see progress. When people make headway on this, they start retiring or have retired credit card debt. What does that do? In your observation for them, how's, how's life different for them?

Nancy Ward 21:46

In retirement,

Mike O'Neill 21:47

nope, when you're out of debt, they come to you, oh, I'm sorry, okay, you've helped them work through this over a period of time. What is, what do you see happen in your interactions with them when they get there?

Nancy Ward 21:58

Well, when they get there, they all of a sudden have that extra money, so whether they want to start saving for repairs to their home or take that dream vacation or just have that buffer, not necessarily putting into the stock market, which you know, again, talk to your financial advisor, financial planner, there's, I don't do that, but I think it's just a lot of weight lifted off their shoulders because they've been making so many decisions about everything in life, at work and at home, and now they don't have to make hard decisions with their money. So when they are out of debt, how can you use that extra money? Do I put it into a savings account? Do I put it into a CD in order to make some extra money? Do I tuck it away in order to have this extra project? But then you have that freedom of, oh, we're gonna go and travel for the day, and that's gonna cost $100 for this wonderful meal. I'm not worried about it, because we are out of debt. We have made the best decision for our money, and this is what we want to enjoy our money for. We want to enjoy it for adventures, or we do want to buy that $600 whatever, but the fact that you have that money, and you know, when the bill comes in, you pay it off in full, that's the biggest pattern, pattern your own back, that you can have, that it is such a mental release that you don't have to think about it and stress about it and go, How am I going to Manage you know that scarcity mindset is just gone, that you don't have to stress out about, like you said, going to a nice dinner, and even if it was with friends that you'd say, You know what, I'm feeling gracious today, I'm going to buy the whole table of dinner tonight without blinking an eye. You don't even have to ask your wife, because you both know you're in a great financial spot, and that's your act of kindness for that night.

Mike O'Neill 24:09

It sounds very liberating. Yes, very much. So, you know, as we kind of reflect on we had this conversation from the perspective of the leaders who are listening, as you kind of reflect on what we've talked about in the form of kind of a final takeaway, yeah, what if folks listening, they're a leader, but they suspect that someone on their team is struggling with debt, what might be one small thing but a meaningful step that they can take to offer support without overstepping.

Nancy Ward 24:48

Well, I guess it also depends on the relationship they have with this employee, good point. But if they do know that, let's just say they just had a new baby. Obviously. You've got the stress of having a new baby, the new expenses of having the new baby and so forth, is maybe being just a little bit more more lenient towards that employee. Or how can you serve them and asking them, you know, what can I do for you? Do you need an extra day off? Do you need to take Tuesdays at three o'clock just to spend more time with your family or what have you, because you really don't want to go and dive personally into their finances, because, again, people are going to be embarrassed about, oh gosh, I'm spending more than I make, but maybe just having that open conversation and asking that employee, what can what can that leader do for that employee in order to make things a lot easier? If they're having restless nights because of the baby, maybe, hey, do you want to come in an hour or two later and maybe work an hour or two afterwards? Or if they're a work at home type situation, because if there's something else besides money going on in their family they don't know. So I would just try to be as open and honest with the employee and possibly provide them some extra resources. But that is a fine line, because you don't want to, you don't want to get too personal as far as with money, but you still want to support that employee,

Mike O'Neill 26:22

you know, Nancy. These are unscripted conversations, and I may have thrown you a little bit of a curveball with that question, but okay, what I might with would share is, if they're coming to you, asking for overtime, yeah, and there's almost a sound of almost desperation in their voice. It could be that they're having financial difficulties, or if they're coming to you and they really are not ready for promotion, but they begin pushing that point. It could be that is in response to so that's kind of what I was throw out to it. They probably won't come and say, I'm having financial difficulty, but it might appear in different ways. Oh,

Nancy Ward 27:08

definitely, yeah, and just having that open conversation and saying, hey, you know, stays in this room. Let's talk about it. Is there something going on that I can help you with, because there are some other services, like debts debt consolidation, where, if it's gone too far, going to a debt consolidation would would help, and also to, just as a side note, credit unions have better loan rates than your normal banks. So even those small bits of advice, or, you know, hey, I'm having problems with my car payment, or I'm having, you know, car troubles, maybe offering those small tips of advice for them, just to say, hey, you know, if you're looking for a new car or that, like I said, with with the credit unions, they do usually have better rates.

Mike O'Neill 28:01

Nancy, I was looking forward to this conversation because we've had two conversations prior to us hitting the record button. I like one. The fact that you are talking about a topic that is serious, but for those watching you've smiled the whole time is that you strike me as someone that you you're real, but you also have seen how, by working with clients, it's made a huge difference. You know, as I kind of wrap up our episode, I want to challenge our listeners, if today's conversation has made you think maybe a little bit different about money and perhaps its effect on team members. Pay attention to that financial stress, it can show up in so many different ways. It could be burnout, it could be distraction, it could even be turnover. So as a leader, you can't solve every financial issue your team members might be facing, but you can lead differently because you're aware of it. In my coaching work, I've seen how hidden financial stress can really erode performance and it can actually erode culture, and how empathy you just stressed that Nancy, how empathy and clarity, it can shift everything. So support doesn't necessarily mean it's coming from handouts. You've made that clear, but it might mean grace. It might mean flexibility, or simply given permission that folks may not have it all together, but you still can trust them. Nancy, you've given us insights that I know our listeners are going to really benefit from you've really kind of shined a light on this hidden challenge and what leaders can do as leaders to lead with more empathy. Before we go, if folks want to kind of find out more about you and what you do, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Nancy Ward 29:58

Yeah, connecting with me. Okay, on LinkedIn, my LinkedIn address is Nancy Ward one. There's a lot of Nancy wards that are out there, so I have a one behind my name, but you can connect with me on LinkedIn and also at Nancy Ward financial coach.com

Mike O'Neill 30:16

good we're gonna include both Nancy Ward one and your email address, as well as your website address and the show notes. Great. Nancy, thank

Nancy Ward 30:28

you so much. Thank you for having me today. I appreciate

Mike O'Neill 30:31

it. I also want to thank for all the folks who are tuning in. I hope this episode has given you some insight to help you get unstuck and on target. Thank you for joining us for this episode of get unstuck and on target. I hope you gain insights to help you lead with confidence and drive your organization forward. Remember, at bench builders, we're committed to your success, your leadership excellence and your strategic growth. If you've enjoyed our conversation today, please leave a review, rate and subscribe to keep up with our latest episodes. This show really grows when listeners like you share it with others. Who do you know, who needs to hear what we talked about today? Until next time, I encourage you to stay focused on the target and continue to break new ground on your leadership path.

Speaker 1 31:34

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